Church of Christ Conversations

[Petros]

Is instrumental music forbidden in the NT? Why was instrumental music commanded in the OT and is present in descriptions of heaven?

[Joe]

Instrumental music is not forbidden in the NT. No amount of Scripture quoting can convince me of that. Too many brethren want a "thus saith the Lord" on every issue, and on this one, there just isn't one.
So why no music? B/c it's not mentioned in the NT. Silence of the Scriptures. Playing it safe, I guess.
In every OT reference to instrumental music, you can never prove it was used in worship. David used instruments to worship God, but privately so. It appears instruments were used in OT temple worship, but you can never find them in synagauge worship. Not one time is it mentioned in the weekly Sabbath services.
History tells us that no instruments were used until the 1100s and never became a prominent part until the 1300s. In America, Baptists and Methodists alike shunned them until the mid-1800s and sometimes early 1900s. Commentator Adam Clark and famous preacher Charles Sturgeon hated them and would not permit their use.
In a nutshell, b/c instruments are not ever mentioned--pro or con--it seems best to err on the side of caution and refrain from using them during the 1-3 hours of formal worship each week. Play them all the rest of the time, but when we formally approach God in worship, let's worship the best we know how from the NT.
Perfect? No. Safe? Yes.
In Him,
Joe

[James]

I find this site to be fascinating. As a member of Christ's body (isn't that what is we become according to the nt?) I do worship with a congregation weekly. So often l've heard many negative or judgemental things said within the building walls of where a church of Christ meets. I still choose to worship within those walls...I do find my authorization for worship within the New Testament...and what I'm told in the NT is to sing. And as Joe so eloquently wrote, are we told NOT to use instruments? No. We are told to sing...make melody in our hearts...why? Maybe there is a reason. I can easily understand why it wouldn't be desirable to God. I went with a friend to a "worship" serivce not long ago, just to check things out. I was confused, because I felt like I was at a contemporary christian concert that I didn't have to pay for. I know people feel it's strange and strict, but if we would really step outside of ourselves and realize that in our wisest of years, and at our best, we are infantile in comparison to God. And it is simple. And I can easily understand how keeping things simple in regards to worship has obviously bored enough individuals in history to decide that with the best of intentions, they would change it. Nonetheless, those of you who have been turned off by someone, or something in the church of Christ. I urge you to continue to search the scriptures!!! There should be nothing divisive within a church, and if such is the case, your answer and your response will lie within the pages of the NT...and we should constantly question. That way we're constantly searching for the truth in every possibly situation ;-)

[Petros]

Speaking of unauthorized worship: the synagogue is totally unauthorized. There is no mention of a synagogue or synagogue worship in the OT. Yet Jesus went right along with this unauthorized organization and worship.

Now if he were truly CoC he would have stood up in the synagogue and said: "My Father never authorized you to organize into synagogues. He gave you all the organization you need. You have spit in His face by coming up with man-made organizations that you have superimposed upon the family worship and temple worship He has authorized. You are in danger of being struck down like Uzzah for daring to add to the authorized organization of the LORD, and you are going to be struck down like Nadab and Abihu for offerinig strange fire before the LORD."

[Joe]

Synagoge worship is never clearly defined in Scripture. At some point it seems that it just started. Was it a man-made institution or divinly authorized? I can only state an opinion b/c the Bible, what we have of it, is silent on the issue.
In Genisis, during the so-called "Patrtrical (sp) Age," we see that formal worship of God had not stared. However, we see reference in the lineage of Adam (I can't remember who the fellow was) that during his time, men began to praise God, making a possible reference to the first formal worship time. Obviously, this at some point before Moses fell by the wayside.
Reading the OT, we see references to books we no longer have. It is possible that the command was written down in one of these tomes. Or it could be that since this was the age of prophets, that the command was never written down. At any rate, we don't know where or how it began--but we do know one thing--Jesus participated in it. As you pointed out, had He had any problem with the idea of worship, He would have pointed it out. So Christ, by His silence, sanctioned the worship of the Jews in synagoges.
But now we are living under the law of grace and truth--that is, Christianity. It is the time in which, according to I Cor. 13, we shall know "as we are known." No longer are people permitted to do as they please, for now God's Will has been made known. 2,000 years shy of that, we can only search the Scriptures and pattern our worship after that of our forefathers as best we can. Instrumental music not being mentioned, it is simply better and safer to leave it alone.
In Him,
Joe

[Petros]

So let me get this straight: Silence in the OT means that it was authorized somewhere by God that we don't have a record of, and silence in the NT means that it is forbidden.

I think this argument is called a circular argument. If I show you any worship elements that were initiated by men without a specific command of God in the OT you will say that there must have been a command that we don't know about.

I showed you a clear example of unauthorized worship in the OT: synagogue worship --that Jesus approved of. That proves to me that God gladly accepts unauthorized worship as long as it follows biblical principles.

[Joe]

The Jews made many rules all of their own. We see Jesus' attitude towards these rules when he took on the Pharisees about their laws that did not originate from God. It's very possible the synagoge worship was totally man-made. We really don't know. It's possible God authorized and there is no record. There's no way to know either way. Truthfully, until you mentioned it, I had never thought about. That's what I like about being challenged to think.
During his earthly ministry, Jesus encountered many things in the Jewish religion that we don't (today) find approval for in the NT. Some He rejected, others He embraced.
I think it could be a fair enough statement to say that God approves of unauthorized worship as long is it follows biblical principals. That's a fair statement. We have today church buildings, located preachers, parsonages, church furniture, church meeting times, song books, song leaders, hymns that are not in the Bible, etc. But all of these seem to me to follow biblical principals as aides in filling the command to worship and to teach.
The arugument I've heard for instrumental music is that it is an expedient, that is, simply an aide to the singing. But honestly, how often is it used that way? We see preludes where music plays and no one sings, we see special music that is instrumental only. How does that aide in the command to sing?
Instrumental music is not the boogie man to me that it is to others. I simply feel that to be safe we need to stick with what we know is permitted rather than venture into uncharted waters. But I should say I love gospel music set to music--just not during the worship service.
By the way, you never answererd my post in the other section. I really do want to know your thoughts on a few of those points.
In Him,
Joe

[Petros]

Joe,

I disagree with you about Jesus and the Pharisees. Jesus never confronted the Pharisees on man-made worship unless the man-made worship violated one of God's principles.

I am surprised that you agree we can do any worship we want as long as it follows biblical principles.

[Mi2thbrsh]

Petros,
Jesus did confront men about their ideas of worship. Jesus says in Matthew that the Jews were guilty of "teaching as doctrine the commandments of men." This statement clearly states that the Jews were introducing ideas of worship, certain traditions, as if they were God's ideas and Jesus was displeased with this. I agree that certain brothers and sisters are guilty of teaching traditions and non-biblical ideas as if they came out of the bible, but we must be careful not to acuse the bunch with the faults of a few. Most brothers and sisters out there are trying to do what is right, the same as in denominations. We must remain confident that the answers are in the Bible and let that be our only guide. If the "church" ever becomes our guide, we are getting ourselves into hot water. If the bible is our guide, then we will always be heading in the right direction. I need to speak where the Bible speaks. I need to be silent where the Bible is silent. And I definitely need to make sure that I am only trying to please God by following His commandments, and not please myself with the way I want worship, or anything else spiritual, my way!

[Petros]

Mi2thbrsh,

Jesus only confronted them if their traditions violated godly principles. If they came up with a new feast day--like Purim (Esther) that was fine with Jesus. As long as the feast day did not violate God's character.

[Mi2thbrsh]

Jesus did confront them when they violated God's commandments but he also confronted them when they did things their way. I think that too often, we ourselves "improving" on God's plan, God's worship, God's way! But the things is, we must realize that God gave us the perfect plan and it is our job to understand it the way that it is. Does God like man-made instruments in worship? Maybe. But that is something that we must not assume. I know that he allowed it in the Old Testament, but He also allowed divorce because of the "hardness of their hearts". We need to make sure that we do not have hard hearts because we do not know if God allows those instruments. I am not saying things out of rhetoric or repeating what I have not struggled with and blindly accepted. I struggled with the instruments side of worship. I play guitar. Music is a huge part of my life. But I can use those things to glorify God in other ways. Worship should be the way God stated, not the way I want it. If worship really is for God, then why not do it the way He specified! Any other way is pharisacial, enforcing our own ideas on other people. Let's teach the commandments of God as the commandments of God.

[rob]

Since the Christian Scriptures were completed somewhere between 90 and 105 and the Canon was not decided on (universally) until at least the first Ecumenical Council (325 AD)...which came first...The Church or the Bible? The Israelites lived with oral tradition, and the Church only had the Hebrew Scriptures, and eventually different Christian communities had Epistles (or copies) and Gospels (or copies) or simply oral tradition via living witnesses.


Rob

[sharon]

[Petros]

In Joshua 22 two and a half tribes built a huge altar on the side of the Jordan river. The other tribes assembled for war because they thought they were substituting their altar for the one in front of the tabernacle.

But they were not. They only wanted to build a monument to their unity to show their children that they were one nation. So they named the altar "Ed" and everyone went home happy.

The tribes (in Joshua 22) were only angry with the altar as long as they thought it was a SUBSTITUTE for what God had commanded. When they found it was only an addition to what God had commanded, and that it actually reinforced what God had commaneded, they were happy, even though God had clearly not asked for it.

This is another example of unauthorized worship that everyone was happy with.

This proves that we do not need authority for items that we want to add to worship.

So far I have quoted three forms of unauthorized worship that everyone was happy with:

1. the synagogue,

2. Esther's feastday, Purim,

3. and the altar "Ed".

[Guest]

Petros, calm down, you may have an attack trying to de-convert all of these converted.